[Webtest] Re: Announcement: WebTest Result Viewer - alpha ver sion

Aatish Arora webtest@lists.canoo.com
Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT)


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yes if you work the way the recorder works.
Note down every single click and translate it into a webtest command.
You dont have functions ...and you dont have property files.
And your code looks worse than what you write in assembly.
 
If your doing this you need to change the way you automate your stuff. 
You need to make functions (check the "Tests get messy" section on http://webtest.canoo.com/manual/troubleshooting.html#Tests%20get%20messy  )
 
This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to save time on manatinance do use this.
 
Lets take a day to day example. If you want to give someone directions to a house in the next lane - there are 2 ways:
 
1) tell him to take the first right and to go straight down and take the first left
2) tell him to go to the end of the street tell him to take a right and to go down till he reaches "Foo street" and go down the road.
 
in real life there wont be an extra street that might come in ur way out of nowhere. Unfortunately our developers, customers, and PMs dont live in a  real world ). They will dig out thier way from wherever possible. They will have signs removed. Renamed and probably do away wit some.
 
Im bad at giving examples I know.
 
But test automation is similar - u never want to take the first set of directions cause ur test suite is dumb. It has no intellignece unless you give it some.
You want to make functions so that if on a change in functiinality you can make a small change rather than a big one. You want to make GUI maps / property files / gui declarations.
 
In short you want to make your test automation suite in such a way that you dont have to work much later.
 
Cheers!
Aatish

"Erskine, Chris" <chris.erskine@eds.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
If the recorder is generating the ANT scripts, then, after you have recorded the scripts the first time, you are maintaining ANT scripts.  Because you now have the ANT scripts, there should not be any difference between creating the scripts the first time by hand and by the recorder (although the recorder should go faster).

 

Chris Erskine

 

EDS Consulting Services

F5-EDS-001

2424 Garden of the Gods Rd

Colorado Springs, CO  80919

 

Phone: 719-535-6064

 

Phone:

mailto:chris.erskine@eds.com


---------------------------------


From: Aatish Arora [mailto:a_aatish@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:48 PM
To: webtest@gate2.canoo.com
Subject: RE: [Webtest] Re: Announcement: WebTest Result Viewer - alpha ver sion


 

Lisa, what you sounds perfect.


 


Chris your solution although sounds good is dangerous. Specially in cases where there are lot of changes being made to the GUI.


A small change can throw you into a turmoil. 


Which is why I liked the way Webtest scripts can be handled. I had 1200 tests which I could boast of. And a lot of changes in the GUI of the AUT (application under test) dint affect me much. A little tweak with properties and ant files you can mantain your test suite easily.


 


On the other hand I have yet to see a recorder that will make your tests powerfull (yes even after editing them and adding verification checks). They dont make functions. The dont make GUI maps (property files in our case).


 


Heres one concrete example that you can use. In your scripts use properties for refrence to objects and keep all these properties in one or more property files. When there is a change to the name of any of these objects, all you have to do is change it in one file not all of them. Sounds good?


A recorder cant do such things for you. 


 


Cheers


Aatish




Lisa Crispin <lisa.crispin@att.net> wrote:


I like the recorder to help get started, especially for a newbie. I don't think there is any danger of Canoo WebTest being mistaken for a capture/playback GUI test tool. The documentation should emphasize the purpose of the recording tool - just a little help getting started and saving some time and tedium, not something to be relied on for creating tests.
-- Lisa


-------------- Original message from "Erskine, Chris" : -------------- 

Although you are right that a recorder is not the answer for true testing, I feel that tying a recorder to WebTest can give you the best of both worlds. You start by recording your scripts. You add an editor which shows the page and allows you to highlight the text that you want to verify. You then edit the generated script to add the steps that you need that the recorder does not support.

The recorder is just a metho! d to help you get started. You still need to maintain your scripts that are generated.

Chris Erskine

EDS Consulting Services
F5-EDS-001
2424 Garden of the Gods Rd
Colorado Springs, CO 80919

Phone: 719-535-6064

Phone:
mailto:chris.erskine@eds.com



From: Aatish Arora [mailto:a_aatish@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 1:17 PM
To: webtest@gate2.canoo.com
Subject: RE: [Webtest] Re: Announcement: WebTest Result Viewer - alpha version

A word of caution for recording related stuff Mittie.
Although a recording does sound great and it does impress a lot of people - including the managers - it isnt quite the way to do test automation. And this will also be emphasized by almost all Test Papers available on the web.
A recording tool can almost never be as intelligent and as powerful your scripts can be.
...and defeats the basic aim of automation - to keep costs low cause you end up recording all the time and al! most never can mantain a test suite with the same.

Cheers!
Aatish

Dierk Koenig wrote:
Sure, the goal is to collect some feedback before putting it
in the distribution. I think this will take a few weeks.

The long-term goal is to provide other small gizmos like this
and bundle them to an application suite. The technology is perfekt for
doing this. Other gizmos may be:
- Click-O-Mat
a MaxQ-like Recording Tool for WebTest.
A first version is running but needs some spit'n polish before
it can be released.



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<DIV>yes if you work the way the recorder works.</DIV>
<DIV>Note down every single click and translate it into a webtest command.</DIV>
<DIV>You dont have functions ...and you dont have property files.</DIV>
<DIV>And your code looks worse than what you write in assembly.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If your doing this you need to change the way you automate your stuff. </DIV>
<DIV>You need to make functions (check the "<STRONG>Tests get messy" </STRONG>section&nbsp;on <A href="http://webtest.canoo.com/manual/troubleshooting.html#Tests%20get%20messy">http://webtest.canoo.com/manual/troubleshooting.html#Tests%20get%20messy</A>&nbsp;<STRONG>&nbsp;</STRONG>)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to save time on manatinance do use this.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lets take a day to day example. If you want to give someone directions to a house in the next lane - there are 2 ways:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1) tell him to take the first right and to go straight down and take the first left</DIV>
<DIV>2) tell him to go to the end of the street tell him to take a right and to go down till he reaches&nbsp;"Foo street" and go down the road.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>in real life there wont be an extra street that might come in ur way out of nowhere. Unfortunately our developers, customers, and PMs dont live in a&nbsp; real world ). They will dig out thier way from wherever possible. They will have signs removed. Renamed and probably do away wit some.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Im bad at giving examples I know.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But test automation is similar - u never want to take the first set of directions cause ur test suite is dumb. It has no intellignece unless you give it some.</DIV>
<DIV>You want to make functions so that if on a change in functiinality you can make a small change rather than a big one. You want to make GUI maps / property files / gui declarations.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In short you want to make your test automation suite in such a way that you dont have to work much later.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheers!</DIV>
<DIV>Aatish</DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>"Erskine, Chris" &lt;chris.erskine@eds.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the recorder is generating the ANT scripts, then, after you have recorded the scripts the first time, you are maintaining ANT scripts.&nbsp; Because you now have the ANT scripts, there should not be any difference between creating the scripts the first time by hand and by the recorder (although the recorder should go faster).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chris Erskine</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">EDS Consulting Services</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">F5-EDS-001</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">2424 Garden of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Gods Rd</st1:address></st1:Street></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Colorado Springs</SPAN></FONT></st1:City><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">, <st1:State w:st="on">CO</st1:State>&nbsp; <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">80919</st1:PostalCode></SPAN></FONT></st1:place><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Phone: 719-535-6064</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Phone:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A href="mailto:chris.erskine@eds.com">mailto:chris.erskine@eds.com</A></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
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<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Aatish Arora [mailto:a_aatish@yahoo.com] <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, August 02, 2004 2:48 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">webtest@gate2.canoo.com</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> RE: [Webtest] Re: Announcement: WebTest Result Viewer - alpha ver sion</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lisa, what you sounds perfect.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Chris your solution although sounds good is dangerous. Specially in cases where there are lot of changes being made to the GUI.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A small change can throw you into a turmoil. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Which is why I liked the way Webtest scripts can be handled. I had 1200 tests which I could boast of. And a lot of changes in the GUI of the AUT (application under test) dint affect me much. A little tweak with properties and ant files you can mantain your test suite easily.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On the other hand I have yet to see a recorder that will make your tests powerfull (yes even after editing them and adding verification checks). They dont make functions. The dont make GUI maps (property files in our case).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Heres one concrete example that you can use. In your scripts use properties for refrence to objects and keep all these properties in one or more property files. When there is a change to the name of any of these objects, all you have to do is change it in one file not all of them. Sounds good?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A recorder cant do such things for you. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Cheers<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Aatish<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Lisa Crispin &lt;lisa.crispin@att.net&gt;</SPAN></I></B> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I like the recorder to help get started, especially for a newbie. I don't think there is any danger of Canoo WebTest being mistaken for a capture/playback GUI test tool. The documentation should emphasize the purpose of the recording tool - just a little help getting started and saving some time and tedium, not something to be relied on for creating tests.<BR>-- Lisa<BR><BR><BR>-------------- Original message from "Erskine, Chris" : -------------- <BR><BR>Although you are right that a recorder is not the answer for true testing, I feel that tying a recorder to WebTest can give you the best of both worlds. You start by recording your scripts. You add an editor which shows the page and allows you to highlight the text that you want to verify. You then edit the generated script to add the steps that you need that the recorder does not support.<BR><BR>The recorder is just a metho! d to help you get
 started. You still need to maintain your scripts that are generated.<BR><BR>Chris Erskine<BR><BR>EDS Consulting Services<BR>F5-EDS-001<BR>2424 Garden of the <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Gods Rd</st1:address></st1:Street><BR><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Colorado Springs</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">CO</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">80919</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><BR><BR>Phone: 719-535-6064<BR><BR>Phone:<BR>mailto:chris.erskine@eds.com<BR><BR><BR><BR>From: Aatish Arora [mailto:a_aatish@yahoo.com] <BR>Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 1:17 PM<BR>To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">webtest@gate2.canoo.com</st1:PersonName><BR>Subject: RE: [Webtest] Re: Announcement: WebTest Result Viewer - alpha version<BR><BR>A word of caution for recording related stuff Mittie.<BR>Although a recording does sound great and it does impress a lot of people - including the managers - it isnt quite the way to do test automation. And this will also be emphasized by almost all
 Test Papers available on the web.<BR>A recording tool can almost never be as intelligent and as powerful your scripts can be.<BR>...and defeats the basic aim of automation - to keep costs low cause you end up recording all the time and al! most never can mantain a test suite with the same.<BR><BR>Cheers!<BR>Aatish<BR><BR>Dierk Koenig <DIERK.KOENIG@CANOO.COM>wrote:<BR>Sure, the goal is to collect some feedback before putting it<BR>in the distribution. I think this will take a few weeks.<BR><BR>The long-term goal is to provide other small gizmos like this<BR>and bundle them to an application suite. The technology is perfekt for<BR>doing this. Other gizmos may be:<BR>- Click-O-Mat<BR>a MaxQ-like Recording Tool for WebTest.<BR>A first version is running but needs some spit'n polish before<BR>it can be released.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>WebTest mailing
 list<BR>WebTest@lists.canoo.com<BR>http://lists.canoo.com/mailman/listinfo/webtest<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
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